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【音乐 】 关于歌剧艺术价值的讨论
中文古典网的话题:
http://www.classical.net.cn/forum/forumview.asp?forumid=1&id=12510


我觉得很多概念是和时代相联的。歌剧没有艺术性或歌剧比器乐艺术性低这样的思想,可能是18世纪和之前的。那时音乐的传播媒介是总谱,要听音乐得去现场。一般人很少能听一两次就能明白器乐作品,相比之下,听(看)歌剧就容易多了,因为有舞台表演。所以,那时的歌剧,其实有点类似当时的流行音乐,为大众的。另一个极端是室内乐,为沙龙的,小众的。

巴赫没有写歌剧,基本上是因为他的职位在教堂所限,不容许。其实他写了很多声乐作品。几部“受难曲”,无异于几部大歌剧。

19世纪时,贝多芬,舒伯特,舒曼花了很大功夫写歌剧。贝多芬好歹留下一部杰作,舒伯特基本上是无功而返,虽然有那么一两部近年引起人们注意,舒曼对歌剧太看重,不愿写成当时流行的意大利歌剧,所以没有写成大作,虽然也有一部有些名气。勃拉姆斯没有歌剧,不是瞧不起歌剧,而是他的一贯创作态度,使他不敢染指,正如他对交响曲。

歌剧曲目,是良莠不齐,或者说是有很多作品的艺术价值还没有得到应有的发现,因为演出花费大。所以我认为,要谈歌剧的艺术价值,得看是谁的。如果你认为莫扎特的音乐艺术价值低,那当然莫扎特的歌剧也在劫难逃。但这样的看法,没有力量的,也是很难找了。而公认的是相反,莫扎特的歌剧代表了他的艺术价值。

对意大利歌剧,本人浅见,威尔第,无论从哪方面讲,他都是19世纪一流作曲家,这可以在任何一本音乐史书上得到验证。我本人也基本上只听威尔第的意大利歌剧。道理很简单,听了他的歌剧,其它意大利歌剧基本上没有价值再听。19世纪歌剧,是威尔第和瓦格纳的世界。

其实对其它音乐体裁,也基本上如此。器乐作品中,二三流作曲家的为人遗忘的,“没有艺术价值”的各类器乐作品作品,相对来说,比被认为如“塞尔维亚理发师”这样“没有艺术价值”的歌剧的,大概要多得多。

到了20世纪,一部歌剧的诞生,基本上是音乐界的一件大事。写得如何不说,能写出来,能上演,这本身就是一件大事。所以,20世纪名家的作品,是歌剧,基本上都是名作,从R斯特劳斯到亚当斯的作品,都是如此。
   
  阿姗     11/01/2006 05:10
Share with you some thoughts of my recent study of the music history.

German operas are very different from Italian operas. Mozart is said to be the first German opera composer. He simply loves the theaters. Compared to the composers you mentioned--Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, and Brahms--Mozart is much more cosmopolitan. I wonder if that has something to do with his love of theater. Also, during Beethoven's era, the revolutionary spirit encourages the composers to write music more suited for the middle class (not the aristocrats). Opera is still a upper class enjoyment because of the high cost of production.

The modern German opera tradition starts with Weber's Der Freischutz, and then developed by Wagner. Subjects of German operas are different from that of Italian operas. German operas are more philosophical and more of the mind, while Italian operas are very human, and more of the heart.

Too bad we know little of Russian operas. Glinka, Mussorgsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, and Tchaikovsky all wrote some great operas. They are very different from Italian and German operas.
   
  BBB     11/01/2006 20:27
真是很高兴在这里见到老网友乐友阿姗。

关于德国歌剧和意大利歌剧mind-heart差别的说法很有意思,也有些同感。事实上19世纪德国德国其它音乐家和其它类型的音乐作品,一般来说都更富于理性,相对其它同时期浪漫派作曲家和作品更浓的情感色彩。可以说马勒是个例外。以也可以认为马勒不完全是属于德奥传统。

如果要全面说歌剧的话,歌剧还有一大系:法国歌剧。细说起来,就长了。明年初是蒙特威尔第的《奥菲欧》上演400周年。这部歌剧不是第一部歌剧,但是是第一部流传下来至今仍然在上演的歌剧杰作。这四百年里出现的歌剧作品难以计数,要想全面深入了解是很难的。时间金钱有限,不可贪全,我自己的目标是比较深入地了解不同时期和风格的主要代表作,约一百部左右。

我近几年很少听19世纪的俄罗斯。主要是觉得作品可发掘的,让人思考东西很少。你提到的那几位作曲家的歌剧,穆索尔斯基的《古都诺夫》是很独特的。其他人的作品,多半都有模仿学习的痕迹。缺少独特的东西,对歌剧这样的大创作,如我这样的一般爱乐者,很容易就找到更好的代替作品了。

我对音乐史很感兴趣。我以为真正喜欢一门学科或艺术,是该全面深入了解它的历史的。全面深入的目的,是认识精华和找到自己的偏爱。欢迎常来指点。


>阿姗 wrote:
>Share with you some thoughts of my recent study of the music history.
>
>German operas are very different from Italian operas. Mozart is said to be the first German opera composer. He simply loves the theaters. Compared to the composers you mentioned--Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, and Brahms--Mozart is much more cosmopolitan. I wonder if that has something to do with his love of theater. Also, during Beethoven's era, the revolutionary spirit encourages the composers to write music more suited for the middle class (not the aristocrats). Opera is still a upper class enjoyment because of the high cost of production.
>
>The modern German opera tradition starts with Weber's Der Freischutz, and then developed by Wagner. Subjects of German operas are different from that of Italian operas. German operas are more philosophical and more of the mind, while Italian operas are very human, and more of the heart.
>
>Too bad we know little of Russian operas. Glinka, Mussorgsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, and Tchaikovsky all wrote some great operas. They are very different from Italian and German operas.
   
  阿姗     11/02/2006 03:06
Sorry I cannot type Chinese yet. I have to replace my broken hard drive and re-install all softwares from scratch these days.

I have been listening to The Teaching Company's music courses the last few months. The lecture is Robert Greenberg. His lectures are extremely informative, interesting, and insightful. I highly recommend them to you. I have listened to the biographies of Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, and Shostakovich (I listened to him two years ago). I am going in order now. Next I will learn about the Schumanns, Liszt, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, and Mahler. Tonight I am finishing up the 48-lecture series of ''How to Listen to and Understand Great Music'', which is basically a music history plus analysis course. I can't tell you how much I have learned from him.

I took a History class last quarter at the university, from Beethoven to present period. I went through Grout again (the second to the newest edition). This quarter I am taking a graduate theory review class (which covers two years of undergraduate theory), and a contemporary technique (theory). Are you taking any classes? I find the theory classes very useful. A good teacher can clarify a lot of confusions in my own reading. With a book, the dialog is only one direction. With a teacher, there is a two-way dialog, and I'm not only learning what I think I need to learn, but also what I should learn.

Anyway, in the Greenberg lectures, he talks about Russian operas and Russian music. Tchaikovsky is not a Russian composer, because he was trained in the German music tradition. The real Russian composers started with Glinka, and the Mighty Five. The Five had no formal music training, so they created truly Russian music. Later Rimsky-Korsakov went to teach at the conservatory, and bridged the gap between Russian style and German tradition. His students included Glazunov (teacher of Shostakovich), Prokofiev, and Stravinsky. Of course, except for Glazunov, these students all wrote great Russian operas. (This paragraph is my ''lecture note'' from yesterday, haha!) In an opera, how to combine music with the language is very important. In short, Russian operas cannot simply be an imitation of German or Italian style, because of the difference in the language.

When I have time, I will share with you more of what I've learned and understood in the last few months.
   
  BBB     11/03/2006 21:47
乘在阿珊这个话题下,我来说说自己喜欢的几本西方音乐史书。

格劳特的西方音乐史的最新版(第七版),去年出的,与它的前一版差别很大,完全重新结构,特别增强了20世纪音乐的部分。去年介绍过:

http://www.mayacafe.com/forum/topic1.php3?tkey=1123431869

我觉得这部史书的方法的基本特点之一,是以时间(世纪)为脉络,有点淡化那种传统的风格的主线(巴洛克,古典,浪漫等等)。我觉得应当是这样。不了解主要风格特征的时候,应当学习这个。但了解之后,又发现该否定这个。这个版本最有意思的特征之一,是介绍主要作曲家时,有意识地对主要音乐家的伟大性给予分级,出现在不同级的标题上,或者以不同突出的方式来简介,包括画像的大小等。一直想给归纳出来的,但上网玩了两年之后,发现这一年来敲键盘的热情愈来愈低了。

以风格为主线的音乐史,我想那部保罗·亨利·朗格的《西方音乐文化中的音乐》,仍然是里程碑式的。这里有上海音乐学院的杨燕迪的介绍:

http://www.writewww.com/topic.php?tkey=1145307288&theme_id=12&page_no=1

当然,这部大书写成于上世纪中,关于20世纪的历史,自然就很少。

还有一种写音乐史的方法,是写音乐发展地理中心随历史的迁移。这就是英国著名音乐史学家杰拉尔德·亚伯拉罕()的《简明牛津音乐史》。这本书可不简明,至少比格兰特的还细。它写出了西方音乐起源于西亚地中海文明,然后是西欧中心(中世纪到文艺复兴,单声到复调的起源),意大利中心(复调到主调的发展,巴罗克,歌剧的起源),到德国中心(主调的全盛,古典到浪漫),到最后则是传统的解体(无调),。。。,非常有意思。每个中心是一大部分,共五大部分。

还有一种音乐史,则是一反突出德奥和意大利传统的西方音乐史,而基本上是以法国音乐和音乐家为主线。这当然是法国学者写的,就是那部保·朗多尔米的《西方音乐史》。视角不同,当然也有发人之处。

完全颠覆了过去这样传统描述音乐史的,是去年新出版的伯克利音乐学教授塔汝斯金的《牛津音乐史》(The Oxford History of Western Music By Richard Taruskin),六大卷,仅20世纪就有两圈。这部书非常奇特,也非常贵,一共大概要700刀。去年刚出版,可在网上,就看到有三本便宜的旧书,才20来刀一本,但有两本没有提供是第几卷的信息,我只好全买来。结果一个第二卷,另外两本都是第四卷。



读音乐史书很有趣,但我这样的业余爱好者,对音乐技术不了解,所以,其中技术性的分析,就只好略去了。其实,不精通和声学知识,大概是很难真正理解那些例子的。好在这些书籍,既是为专业人士所写,更是为我这样的外行写的,所以其中文字分析,是足以让人入迷的了。
   
  阿姗     11/05/2006 23:30
I replied to you below my blog, and I copy it over.

BBB: 从内容列表看,这个教程的确比较系统些。对早期音乐的介绍比其它类似书籍要全面,这可能与近30年来古典音乐表演中复古倾向吻合。现在喜欢古乐(中世纪到文艺复兴时期,直到巴洛可早期,17世纪末)的人也越来越多。过去一说古典音乐,一般人们想到18世纪到20世纪初,维瓦尔第到斯特拉文斯基。现在多半要谈文艺复兴时期的复调音乐(弥撒,经文歌,牧歌等),巴罗可歌剧等等。这些内容在这个教程里都很多。

Right. Also it's very helpful to listen to the examples when he talks about them. If you read a book, sometimes it's difficult to know what the music sounds like. I had read about the ancient Greek music but had never heard of it played before this course. This course is designed for non-musicians, so you will learn some basic theory (especially cadence). I highly recommend this course to you. A little bit of theory knowledge goes a long way in music. :) I can send you the mp3 files of this course if you want (but mine is only perhaps 95% complete)
   
  BBB     11/06/2006 20:42
阿姗,我将你的BLOG上的介绍全文转过来了,也许有人会喜欢。

我给了你一个MAIL,给了你一个FTP地址和账号信息,上传大文件方便。

说起终止式(cadence),那是个乐理上非常技术,绝对是和声学的内容。我这样的业余爱好者,是根本理解不了的。但另一方面,却也是知道这个在古典浪漫时期的主调音乐中围绕调性的重要特质,想知道这个教程是如何讲解,让我这样的外行理解的。所以对18讲也特别感兴趣。多谢。


>阿姗 wrote:
>I replied to you below my blog, and I copy it over.
>
>BBB: 从内容列表看,这个教程的确比较系统些。对早期音乐的介绍比其它类似书籍要全面,这可能与近30年来古典音乐表演中复古倾向吻合。现在喜欢古乐(中世纪到文艺复兴时期,直到巴洛可早期,17世纪末)的人也越来越多。过去一说古典音乐,一般人们想到18世纪到20世纪初,维瓦尔第到斯特拉文斯基。现在多半要谈文艺复兴时期的复调音乐(弥撒,经文歌,牧歌等),巴罗可歌剧等等。这些内容在这个教程里都很多。
>
>Right. Also it's very helpful to listen to the examples when he talks about them. If you read a book, sometimes it's difficult to know what the music sounds like. I had read about the ancient Greek music but had never heard of it played before this course. This course is designed for non-musicians, so you will learn some basic theory (especially cadence). I highly recommend this course to you. A little bit of theory knowledge goes a long way in music. :) I can send you the mp3 files of this course if you want (but mine is only perhaps 95% complete)